Horvath and Revelation, Part X;Obama and Muslim Money;Ayn Rand Center

A Response to Anthony "stjohnny" Horvath

On "Road-to-Damascus" type Revelations

To read the original blog by Horvast,click on Guest Author Rev. Anthony "sntjohnny" Horvath

Note: I have been mistaken in the title to use for "sntjohnny." Here is what he wrote to me recently: "For quick reference- I am not a pastor or a reverend. I did finish the pastoral ministry degree in college which in many denominations is sufficient to receive ordination but in my denomination an additional four years on top of the bachelors degree is required- and I didn't do that. (and no complaints about it, either!)"

Introduction by Tony Horvath:

"Recently an atheist [Clark] stumbled upon my site and put [there]

a post responding to a post on my own blog on

the distinction between ‘natural’ revelation and ’special’ revelation.

The reader has all the information in the links above to follow this exchange, if they like.

"In my blog entry I indicated that many atheists won’t be convinced by anything less than their own ‘Road to Damascus’ experience. Mr. Clark responds:"

Part Two, (or is it Three?)

Atheists don’t believe such revelations as "revealed" or "natural" are possible, because the cause of them does not exist. A revealed revelation, as Horvath points out, "concerns that which is known and can only be known because God himself reveals it." A "natural" revelation is one which comes through contemplation about the nature of existence.

Any "atheist" who could possibly be looking for a revelation, revealed or natural, would be a contradiction, in terms of what his beliefs were, as concerning the lack of a god who could give such revelations versus what he expected as either an epistemic or metaphysical quality of knowledge. In other words, he either believes no god exists, in which case no quality of knowledge can be called "revelation" in the religious sense; or he believes religious-type revelations are possible, in which case he is wrong about being atheist.

By definition, an atheist knows there is no god, in the sense that all the resolutions of logic one has in one’s mind is what he “knows.” This is sometimes called “justified true belief,” as opposed to “unjustified.” The justification comes from the soundness of the argument that there are only two choices: naturalism and supernaturalism; and from the soundeness of the proposition that faith is the negation of reason.

Theists, on the other hand, 'know,' by the same standard, that God exists. Atheists 'know' he does not. Each of them has found the soundness, the justification, within his own logic that to doubt it would be to doubt his own mind. To go looking for a revelation, or even to expect that perhaps such a supernatural quality of knowledge will be imparted to him, implies that he knows nothing either way, and perhaps has no beliefs one way or the other.

You say I am engaged in an unnecessary discussion on what constitutes an atheist, that there are different kinds of atheists, including what we construe in technical terms as weak and strong atheists. You say your problem as a Christian Apologist is that these issues are largely an internal matter among atheists but each atheist insists on telling you what atheism absolutely is! "Atheism," you say, "reduces, ultimately, to each individual atheist’s perception of atheism."

My contention is that just as there cannot be such a thing as a strong chair vs. a weak chair--which would be what: anything not manufactured as a chair but which works as a chair anyway?--and just as there cannot be a thing such as a strong apple versus a weak apple......The point is, "chair", "apple", "naturalist," numismatist," and "atheist" are concepts. What is a weak concept versus a strong concept?

It is true that "naturalist" and "atheist" are concepts indicating epistemic determinations. But a definition is still a definition, and the only one that can be argued is the one that takes the idea to its logical extreme. Anything less than the extreme is less than the essence of the concept. Why debate things which are not the essence of the debate?

You say you recently had one instance where you asked an atheist if he agreed that revelations were possible if one happened to him. He answered, “You’re asking me whether if god came to visit me (like some amplified Jehovah’s Witness) and explained the whole thing, then would that change my opinion? Uh, yes."

Tony, I myself will tell you the same thing: If God came to me it would be less than rational to ascribe his identity to him. But I will also tell you that since the concept of "atheist" means denial of the supernatural realm, asking your question is like asking whether one would believe in sapient army ants if one showed up. Of course I would believe in sapient army ants if one showed up. It isn't going to happen. MORE

Check out http://sntjohnny.com/front/ and discover the wonderful world of rational Christianity. Now THAT is a "breath of fresh air." CEC

Compiled from "Act! for America"

"The article below was written by Kenneth Timmerman, President and director of the Middle East Data Project. He has authored a number of books including Countdown to Crisis: the Coming Nuclear Showdown in Iran. For his work in exposing the Islamic Republic of Iran's nuclear weapons program, he was nominated for the 2006 Nobel Peace Prize. Mr. Timmerman is also a member of the Board of Advisors of our sister organization, American Congress for Truth.

"Timmerman's article reveals that [because of] foreign nationals from the Muslim world [making] illegal contributions to the Barack Obama campaign, the Federal Election Commission has compiled a list of questionable foreign contributions totaling nearly $34,000,000!"

Read Timmerman's article here.

http://www.newsmax.com/timmerman/Obama_fundraising_illegal/2008/09/29/135718.html

Strong American Schools, We Hardly Knew Ye

From Cato @ Liberty; The blog of the Cato Institute.

"It was recently announced that Strong American Schools, the group founded by magnates Bill Gates and Eli Broad to put education high on the presidential-election docket, will die in March. It will, in all likelihood, expire in relative anonymity.
"The initiative’s biggest problem has been having to compete against behemoths like war and Wall Street for headlines–a struggle education couldn’t possibly win–but as I wrote back in May, the group also hasn’t offered anything new or noteworthy, a sure way to go unnoticed. Top-down, “government should do more of x” reforms just don’t fire anyone’s imagination because, well, that’s what we’ve been doing for decades and things just haven’t gotten much better.
"And so, Strong American Schools, you will be missed…but not for very long.
posted by Neal McCluskey on 10.02.08 @ 7:23 pm
Filed Under: Education and Child Policy "

The Ayn Rand Center Responds to the Financial Crisis

"Americans are now facing an historic economic crisis. What was the cause? What is the cure? How do we prevent it from happening again? While pundits and politicians blame the current housing and financialcrisis on "greedy" businessmen and lax regulators, and are frantically urging the government to expand its control over our economic lives, the Ayn Rand Center for Individual Rights has launched a new Web pageto defend a different view--that the actual cause of the crisisis government intervention, and the only cure, laissez-faire capitalism. http://www.aynrand.org/site/R?i=rL8idB-SoNNA8lMh3mz0Ig..

Note: I will be the featured speaker at the Center For Inquiry (CFI) meeting, October 16, 2008, in Portage, Michigan. The topic is "Atheism as a 'Religion' Protected by Courts According to the Establishment Clause." http://www.centerforinquiry.net/ CEC

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© 2008 by Curtis Edward Clark and Naturalist Academy Publishing ®

Unusual Headlines; Saturday Musings; Quotes

The Libertarian Case for Obama
Seven potential upsides to a hope-monger presidency
"For those who recognize that "libertarian Democrat" is no more oxymoronic than "libertarian Republican," a solid case can be made for Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) as a Leader of the Free World who won't take that American Exceptionalism conceit as seriously as "Country First" Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.)." Terry Michael September 19, 2008 http://www.reason.com/news/show/128902.html



On the Other Hand....
Obama's 'Plans for Change' Ad is "Translated"
For those who don't speak "Washingonese"
http://reason.tv/roughcut/show/540.html

Ayn Rand Mike Wallace Interview 1959 part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ukJiBZ8_4k

Ayn Rand Mike Wallace Interview 1959 part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMTDaVpBPR0

Center For Inquiry’s Unique Mission
"The Center for Inquiry is a daring new concept. Although modern world civilization is based upon the achievements of science and technology, until this time there has been no authoritative and credible voice defending the scientific outlook in examining religion, human values, and the borderlands of science. If the naturalistic outlook is to supplant the ancient mythological narratives of the past, it needs a new institution devoted to its articulation and dramatization to the public. The Center for Inquiry is that institution.

"The scientific revolution, which is now four centuries old, has made great progress in expanding the frontiers of knowledge in the natural, biological, behavioral, and social sciences; and this has led to enormous contributions to human welfare. Witness, for example, the strides made in improving nutrition, health, and longevity, in enhanced travel and communication and the many goods and services available for human enjoyment and happiness. Yet along with the advancement of the agenda of scientific inquiry, there persists a culture of mysticism and faith that resists it.

"What would it mean to extend the scientific spirit to our most basic and cherished convictions? It would be to embrace a thoroughly scientific outlook (an outlook referred to in the scholarly literature as scientific naturalism or philosophical naturalism). The naturalistic outlook is at once a method of inquiry, a cosmic world view, and a new form of ethical inquiry."

Council for Secular Humanism [is an affiliate]
"The Council for Secular Humanism (CSH) cultivates rational inquiry, ethical values, and human development through the advancement of secular humanism. To carry out its mission the Council for Secular Humanism sponsors publications, programs, and organizes meetings and other group activities." [abridged from http://centerforinquiry.net/]



The Heritage Foundation Says Chinese-Owned Hong Kong is "Economically Free-est"; U.S. Ranks 5th

"The 2008 Index of Economic Freedom covers 162 countries across 10 specific freedoms such as trade freedom, business freedom, investment freedom, and property rights. View scores and rankings for any country, along with detailed data and background analysis. [Visit the Countries »] or [See Top 10 »] The 2008 Index provides an even clearer picture of economic freedom by using data-driven equations which allows countries to be graded between scores of 0 and 100. We continue the tradition of equally blending "Ten Freedoms" to produce a simple, unbiased overall score for each country.

"For over a decade, The Wall Street Journal and The Heritage Foundation, Washington's preeminent think tank, have tracked the march of economic freedom around the world with the influential Index of Economic Freedom. Since 1995, the Index has brought Smith's theories about liberty, prosperity and economic freedom to life by creating 10 benchmarks that gauge the economic success of 162 countries around the world. With its user-friendly format, readers can see how 18th century theories on prosperity and economic freedom are realities in the 21st century." http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/countries.cfm

Quotes for Your Weekend
"Men are nicotine soaked, beer besmirched, whiskey greased, red-eyed devils."
Carry Nation
"Four hostile newspapers are more to be feared than a thousand bayonets." Napoleon
"It took me seventeen years to get 3,000 hits in baseball. I did it in one afternoon on the golf course." Hank Aaron
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

Naturalist Resources--A Short List Part 1

Today is a bit of an easy day for this blog. Naturalism has many homes both on the internet and in universities and elsewhere. For your benefit, here is a list of just a few of them. In an attempt to identify such organizations and educational sources for our readers, we will for the next few weeks or longer be publishing these lists on Friday of each week.

If you know of a particular website or organization or educational center you would like to see listed, or if you would like to have your own included here, please use the mailto: at the bottom.

American Society of Naturalists http://www.amnat.org/
About the ASN : The purpose of the Society is to advance and to diffuse knowledge of organic evolution and other broad biological principles so as to enhance the conceptual unification of the biological sciences. This is achieved by publishing The American Naturalist and by holding an annual meeting with a scientific program of symposia and contributed papers and posters.

History : 1867 First issue of The American Naturalist published in March. It was organized by Alpheus S. Packard, Jr., Frederick W. Putnam, Edward S. Morse, and Alpheus Hyatt, who had been students of Louis Agassiz and assistants at the Museum of Comparative Zoology at Harvard University. Packard had been an assistant surgeon in the Civil War (1st Maine Volunteers) and Hyatt had been a captain with the 47th Massachusetts Regiment. After the museum tried to prevent the assistants from working on their own research after hours, they went to the Essex Institute and Peabody Academy of Science in Salem, Mass., in February 1867. Putnam was a nephew of George Peabody, the donor. The masthead said, "A Popular Illustrated Magazine of Natural History." more http://www.amnat.org/ASN/abo.html#history
Past Officers : http://www.amnat.org/ASN/past-ec.html#pres
Online Table of Contents : http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/toc/an/current?cookieSet=1

The Center for Inquiry http://www.centerforinquiry.net/
About : The Center for Inquiry is a daring new concept. Although modern world civilization is based upon the achievements of science and technology, until this time there has been no authoritative and credible voice defending the scientific outlook in examining religion, human values, and the borderlands of science. If the naturalistic outlook is to supplant the ancient mythological narratives of the past, it needs a new institution devoted to its articulation and dramatization to the public. The Center for Inquiry is that institution.
The purpose of the Center for Inquiry is to promote and defend reason, science, and freedom of inquiry in all areas of human endeavor. The Center for Inquiry is a transnational nonpartisan, nonprofit 501(c)(3) organization that encourages evidence-based inquiry into science, pseudoscience, medicine and health, religion, ethics, secularism, and society. The Center for Inquiry is not affiliated with, nor does it promote, any political party or political ideology.
Through education, research, publishing, and social services, it seeks to present affirmative alternatives based on scientific naturalism. The Center is also interested in providing rational ethical alternatives to the reigning paranormal and religious systems of belief, and in developing communities where like-minded individuals can meet and share experiences.

Mission : (In Part) [U]ntil the Center for Inquiry, there were no institutions dedicated primarily to promote and defend science, reason, and free inquiry in all aspects of human interest.
The purpose of the Center for Inquiry is to contribute to the public understanding and appreciation of science and reason, and their applications to human conduct. [ ]
There is, in the public mind, a vast confusion between genuine science and fringe or pseudoscience. Moreover, there is a large reservoir of antiscientific attitudes about the dangers of scientific research, and fear that scientists who tread in unknown domains are aping the work of Frankenstein. The widespread apprehension about cloning research is reminiscent of the fear of nuclear physicists expressed only a generation ago, that in investigating elementary particles they have opened a Pandora's Box which will destroy humankind. Many even insist that there are areas of human life that scientific inquiry cannot or should not enter. [ ]
What would it mean to extend the scientific spirit to our most basic and cherished convictions? It would be to embrace a thoroughly scientific outlook (an outlook referred to in the scholarly literature as scientific naturalism or philosophical naturalism). The naturalistic outlook is at once a method of inquiry, a cosmic world view, and a new form of ethical inquiry.

Projects : Introducing The Jesus Project R. Joseph Hoffmann, Ph.D.Chair, Committee for the Scientific Examination of Religion http://www.jesus-project.com/intro.htm
(In Part) [ ] in January 2007, at the University of California, Davis, the Committee for the Scientific Examination of Religion (CSER) asked the question that had been looking for a serious answer for over a hundred years: Did Jesus exist? [ ] The Jesus Project, as CSER has named the new effort, is the first methodologically agnostic approach to the question of Jesus’ historical existence. But we are not neutral, let alone willfully ambiguous, about the objectives of the project itself. We believe in assessing the quality of the evidence available for looking at this question before seeing what the evidence has to tell us. We do not believe the task is to produce a “plausible” portrait of Jesus prior to considering the motives and goals of the Gospel writers in telling his story. http://www.jesus-project.com/intro.htm

The Center for Inquiry's 12th World Congress: Science, Public Policy, and the Planetary Community April 9-12, 2009 Speakers already confirmed include NASA climatologist Drew Shindell, Roger Bonnet from the International Space Science Institute, author and social critic Christopher Hitchens, acknowledged authority on evolutionary biology Michael Ruse, skeptical investigators James Randi and Joe Nickell, renowned psychologist Elizabeth Loftus, and many others.

Publications and Libraries : The flagship magazines for the educated public published at the Center for Inquiry are CSI's The Skeptical Inquirer and the Council for Secular Humanism's Free Inquiry (with a combined readership of nearly 100,000).
Additional magazines at CFI are read in the U.S. (The American Rationalist), United Kingdom (The Skeptic), the Spanish-speaking world (Pensar), Perú (New Skepticism, and The Journal of Applied Philosophy), and Russia (Common Sense).
The Center's ground-breaking peer-reviewed academic journals include The Scientific Review of Alternative Medicine, The Scientific Review of Mental Health Practice, and Philo. more
The Skeptics Library and the fast-growing Library of American Philosophical Naturalism is unique in the world, while the Library of Humanism and Freethought is the foremost such collection in the English-speaking world. http://www.centerforinquiry.net/about/publications_and_libraries/

The Atheism Tapes : As part of the making of the ground-breaking series “A Brief History of Disbelief,” Jonathan Miller filmed conversations with some very distinguished minds. Jonathan, of course, could not resist the temptation to make these conversations wide ranging and so – naturally enough – their final contributions to “A Brief History of Disbelief” are only a small part of the original interviews.
Now this six part series is an opportunity to see and hear the conversations at much greater length as Jonathan Miller goes head to head with Daniel Dennett, Denys Turner, Richard Dawkins, Colin McGinn, Arthur Miller and StevenWeinberg. http://www.centerforinquiry.net/store/
Committee for Skeptical Inquiry (CSI)
Council for Secular Humanism (CSH)
The Committee for the Scientific Examination of Religion (CSER)
Commission for Scientific Medicine and Mental Health (CSMMH)

Philo
Philo is published biannually at the Center for Inquiry with assistance from Purdue University. Its goal is to publish original, conceptually precise, and argumentatively rigorous articles in all fields of philosophy. Although not devoted to any specific branch of philosophy, Philo encourages the submission of work that examines philosophical issues from an explicitly naturalist perspective. It also welcomes work on the philosophical credentials of both naturalism and various supernaturalist alternatives to naturalism. This would include work ordinarily classified as philosophy of religion (theistic proofs, the problem of evil, and the like) as well as any other work that directly or indirectly defends or challenges naturalism. Philo is the publication of the Society of Humanist Philosophers.
(See Philo's impressive list of associated scholars and authors @) http://www.philoonline.org/index.html

The Center for Naturalism
The Center for Naturalism promotes science-based naturalism as a comprehensive worldview - a rational and fulfilling alternative to faith-based religions and other varieties of supernaturalism. The under-standing that we are fully natural beings is the foundation for an effective approach to personal and social concerns, and highlights our intimate connection to the awe-inspiring universe described by science. Through its educational activities and initiatives, the Center develops constructive applications of naturalism, supports progressive social policy, and in collaboration with other secular groups, helps to build a community of naturalists.

Statement On Naturalism : Naturalism is the understanding that there is a single, natural world as shown by science, and that we are completely included in it. Naturalism holds that everything we are and do is connected to the rest of the world and derived from conditions that precede us and surround us. Each of us is an unfolding natural process, and every aspect of that process is caused, and is a cause itself. So we are fully caused creatures, and seeing just how we are caused gives us power and control, while encouraging compassion and humility. By understanding consciousness, choice, and even our highest capacities as materially based, naturalism re-enchants the physical world, allowing us to be at home in the universe. Naturalism shows our full connection to the world and others, it leads to an ethics of compassion, and it gives us far greater control over our circumstances.

Guiding Philosophy : http://www.centerfornaturalism.org/about.htm
Programs : http://www.centerfornaturalism.org/programs.htm

Naturalism.Org, a production of the Center for Naturalism, is a resource for those interested in scientific naturalism and its personal and social implications. For background and FAQs on this understanding of naturalism, please see http://www.naturalism.org/

Please send all comments to mailto:freeassemblage@gmail.com
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This publication © 2008 by Curtis Edward Clark and Naturalist Academy Publishing ®